I talked w/ Greg about it earlier, but I am a conditional yes. If you are caught on Camera robbing the bank and shooting the teller, if there is UNdisputable evidence- then I don't think they should even get a trial. Really, they are guilty, what else can they say. Or those that have 56 DUI's and hit and kill someone- off they go. No waiting years, it should be done in a matter of weeks. I hate how much it costs to supporate these people who are just bad. Can you image how much $$$ we'd have if there weren't so many people living on death row? Report of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice “The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”
Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
That is just California. I could spend that money on schools and not have so many people end up in jail!
OR if we don't do that, then we should choose an island in the middle of the ocean (think Hawaii) and go drop everyone there. That way if they want to be horrible, it's just to each other. Also, I think that all child molesters should be sent to the same island, after being castrated. I figure that ever 30 days or so we could air drop some supplies into them. Maybe if we're lucky they'll get hit my a Tsunami.
I totally agree with Jen. Why should we pay money to support these awful people. If there is no question that they have murdered someone in cold bold why should they deserve to live? You may think I'm horrible but I think that it would be good to do forced sterilizations on those women who have screwed up over and over again. Why should they have the chance to screw up more than one childs life? And yet there are women who do it over and over again. Eight children and they're still doing drugs and ruining any chance their children might have to be successful and have a good life. I do agree about the island thing Jen!!! Especially for pedophiles!!
So there's an interesting concept I learned about in my Book of Mormon Class recently, and i want to know if anyone's heard of it. It's called Blood Atonement. Basically, the concept is that the Atonement cannot fully meet the demands of justice for those who have killed another because the Atonoment cannot bring back the life of someone who has been killed. As a result, the life of the person who killed is required in order to make recompense for the sin if forgiveness is to be had. I don't know much on the subject though. Aside from that, I believe in the death penalty on basis of scripture. I can udnerstand why it takes so long for people on death row to be executed. The Justice system is set up in such a way to ensure we do not kill anyone who is innocent. Many people have been proven innocent while on death row and were saved because of the large amounts of time they have been waiting.
I know what you're saying, and I agree that the trial faze should take awhile...if things are in question. But how can you question a video tape of a guy going in and shooting people? Or several eye witness watching someone kill somebody else? At that point, they are automatically guilty- what else can they prove? Those are the ones that I think should be put down immediatly.
I was talking with Greg today, and I would like to propose a new punishment for abusers, child moleters, and other stupid people. It would be called the opposable thumb law. I think that if you're stupid (we had a lady beat a 6 month baby leaving her permanantly blind and having seizures) then they should have their thumbs cut off. Supposedly thumbs are the thing that set us apart from other animals, and since these people are behaving like animals, then they lose thier thumbs! As a parent you'd be like "oh, I'm sorry, my kid can't come over to your house because you have no thumbs". Wouldn't that make it so much easier...and safer! HA!
I have yet to give my take on this, so here goes. I will try not to be too lengthy:
I am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:
1. I don't think that it is our place to take the life of another person; I have not found an scriptural basis for this post-law of Moses. God can take lives; we can not.
2. It seems counter-intuitive to punish someone for taking another's life by taking their life. It's like hitting your child and saying, "We don't hit."
3. It is not an effective deterant. I feel there are very few people who think, "I am about to commit this double murder rape, but I don't think I am going to because I might get killed." Those people are so far beyond our reach that nothing will deter them.
4. A long trial does not fix the problem. United States citizens have a right to a speedy trial and if all went well, we would have people convicted quickly. In essence, the argument is that we can protect innocent people on death row by denying them of their rights to speedy trial.
As far as the Blood Atonement goes, the argument is flawed. If, in order for the atonement to work, all wrongs must be righted, then it must give virtue back to those that get raped, love back to those that get abused, and a home back to those convicted of arson.
The atonement does not work in such a tangible way in any area, including murder. Christ can atone for the sins of others bu suffering the punishment they would receive had they not repented. He can suffer sufficiently for one who has murdered. Saying that the life of the killer mus be taken demeans the atonement and deems it imperfect.
I agree w/ Greg, that long trial may spare those that are innocent, but really- there are some VERY guilty people on death row that we have NO doubt about being guilty. I do have to agree with point #3. At this point it is not an effective deterant, but if would be if people honestly thought that it would happen. It's like telling a kid "if you don't eat your veggies today, then I'm not going to give you dessert on May 22, 2039" but they get to have dessert up until that point PLUS if they really keep whining then they may get dessert forever anyway. I think that you would see more people think their actions if there were some "instant" punishment. I still think that those people that are caught on camera, or many witnesses (picture the guy that just shot all of those people on the army base. is there ANY doubt he's guilty? no.) then next week- good bye. I do think that would make a lot of people really rethink their actions. We'll still have crimes of passion, but Probably a lot less premeditated crap!
And I am probably one of those people who swat their kids and say "we don't hit"- and sometimes they honestly need that! So, let's take someone and shoot them and say "We don't shoot". I bet that would make people think about thier actions! I want someone to make me eat a whole pizza and say "we don't make a pig of ourselves!" :)
Sometimes we forget that there are two sets of laws that we are dealiang with, God's laws and the law's of the land. With a theocratic type of government capital pushishement or in other words blood atonement is a no brainer. It is God's law set out in what Greg calls the pre-moses era. That is not just the law of Moses. President Kimball said, and I have a tendancy to believe a prophet, "The proper earthl penalty for the [murder]is clearly set out in the scriptures and applied to all ages of the world. This penalty is the prerogative and responsibility of governmental authority, since no unauthroized person may take the law into his own hands and sla a fellow being." He goes on to quote, Geneis 9:6, Exodus 21:12, Leviticus 24:17 and D&C 42:19, which says ". . .Thous shalt not kill, but he that killeth shall die." This is one law that in my opinion coincides with God's law and we as individuals are not responsible for killing someone, it is the government's resposibility. How we administer it may be all messed up from how God would adminiter it, but none the less it is God's law. I think that the appropriate punishment should be stoning. Wasn't that the punishment at the time of Moses? Oh, ha they did not have guns or electricity or drugs. Is stoning crule and unusual punishment? Do you think that when Christ comes again that His theocratic government will include blood atonement?
Okay, I know that I write too much and you probably do not read it all, but I want to continue my discussion. Now let's talk about the atonement. Elder Tadd Calister of the Seventy in his wonderful book " The Infinite Atonement" states, "The Atonement of the Savior covers every repentable since known to man". I could quote many of the scriptures he quoted, but that would take to much time. The key here is repentable. If the Atonement only covers repentable sins then what is not repentable. Well we know sinning against the Holy Ghost, but what about murder? John wrote, "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." D&C 42:18, 79 state that the muderer has no forgiveness. Forgivenss is the key word here. It does not say that it is not repentabable, just not forgiveable. President Kimball explains, "The muderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime." He goes on to explain that it is still repentable. "Even unpardonable sins should be repented of. The murderer does not have eternal life abiding in him, but a merciful God will grant to every soul adquate rewards for every good deed he does. God is Just. He will compensate for every effort to do good, to repent, to overcome sin. Even the murderer is justified in repenting and mending his ways and building up a credit balance in his favor." Love you all.
I searched current church position on the subject and an official Church statement says that they do not take a position on the death penalty. I guess they are saying that it is up to the people to decide whether or not the death pwnslty is appropriate. God supports both those who do and do note support the death penalty. At least I don't have to feel like I am battling Church doctrine, now.
Thanks for doing the research for us dad. Like Greg, I am glad to hear what the church and scriptures say. I have to say, stoning does sound cruel and unusual, as does drowning and electric chair. If it has to happen, I do think that they have developed a very human and painless way of doing it. I still vote for an unknow island.
I'd love to know where you stand and why.
ReplyDeleteI talked w/ Greg about it earlier, but I am a conditional yes. If you are caught on Camera robbing the bank and shooting the teller, if there is UNdisputable evidence- then I don't think they should even get a trial. Really, they are guilty, what else can they say. Or those that have 56 DUI's and hit and kill someone- off they go. No waiting years, it should be done in a matter of weeks. I hate how much it costs to supporate these people who are just bad. Can you image how much $$$ we'd have if there weren't so many people living on death row?
ReplyDeleteReport of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice
“The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.”
Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
That is just California. I could spend that money on schools and not have so many people end up in jail!
OR if we don't do that, then we should choose an island in the middle of the ocean (think Hawaii) and go drop everyone there. That way if they want to be horrible, it's just to each other. Also, I think that all child molesters should be sent to the same island, after being castrated. I figure that ever 30 days or so we could air drop some supplies into them. Maybe if we're lucky they'll get hit my a Tsunami.
I totally agree with Jen. Why should we pay money to support these awful people. If there is no question that they have murdered someone in cold bold why should they deserve to live?
ReplyDeleteYou may think I'm horrible but I think that it would be good to do forced sterilizations on those women who have screwed up over and over again. Why should they have the chance to screw up more than one childs life? And yet there are women who do it over and over again. Eight children and they're still doing drugs and ruining any chance their children might have to be successful and have a good life.
I do agree about the island thing Jen!!! Especially for pedophiles!!
So there's an interesting concept I learned about in my Book of Mormon Class recently, and i want to know if anyone's heard of it. It's called Blood Atonement. Basically, the concept is that the Atonement cannot fully meet the demands of justice for those who have killed another because the Atonoment cannot bring back the life of someone who has been killed. As a result, the life of the person who killed is required in order to make recompense for the sin if forgiveness is to be had. I don't know much on the subject though. Aside from that, I believe in the death penalty on basis of scripture. I can udnerstand why it takes so long for people on death row to be executed. The Justice system is set up in such a way to ensure we do not kill anyone who is innocent. Many people have been proven innocent while on death row and were saved because of the large amounts of time they have been waiting.
ReplyDeleteI know what you're saying, and I agree that the trial faze should take awhile...if things are in question. But how can you question a video tape of a guy going in and shooting people? Or several eye witness watching someone kill somebody else? At that point, they are automatically guilty- what else can they prove? Those are the ones that I think should be put down immediatly.
ReplyDeleteI was talking with Greg today, and I would like to propose a new punishment for abusers, child moleters, and other stupid people. It would be called the opposable thumb law. I think that if you're stupid (we had a lady beat a 6 month baby leaving her permanantly blind and having seizures) then they should have their thumbs cut off. Supposedly thumbs are the thing that set us apart from other animals, and since these people are behaving like animals, then they lose thier thumbs! As a parent you'd be like "oh, I'm sorry, my kid can't come over to your house because you have no thumbs". Wouldn't that make it so much easier...and safer! HA!
I have yet to give my take on this, so here goes. I will try not to be too lengthy:
ReplyDeleteI am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:
1. I don't think that it is our place to take the life of another person; I have not found an scriptural basis for this post-law of Moses. God can take lives; we can not.
2. It seems counter-intuitive to punish someone for taking another's life by taking their life. It's like hitting your child and saying, "We don't hit."
3. It is not an effective deterant. I feel there are very few people who think, "I am about to commit this double murder rape, but I don't think I am going to because I might get killed." Those people are so far beyond our reach that nothing will deter them.
4. A long trial does not fix the problem. United States citizens have a right to a speedy trial and if all went well, we would have people convicted quickly. In essence, the argument is that we can protect innocent people on death row by denying them of their rights to speedy trial.
As far as the Blood Atonement goes, the argument is flawed. If, in order for the atonement to work, all wrongs must be righted, then it must give virtue back to those that get raped, love back to those that get abused, and a home back to those convicted of arson.
The atonement does not work in such a tangible way in any area, including murder. Christ can atone for the sins of others bu suffering the punishment they would receive had they not repented. He can suffer sufficiently for one who has murdered. Saying that the life of the killer mus be taken demeans the atonement and deems it imperfect.
whoops . . . too lengthy
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree w/ Greg, that long trial may spare those that are innocent, but really- there are some VERY guilty people on death row that we have NO doubt about being guilty. I do have to agree with point #3. At this point it is not an effective deterant, but if would be if people honestly thought that it would happen. It's like telling a kid "if you don't eat your veggies today, then I'm not going to give you dessert on May 22, 2039" but they get to have dessert up until that point PLUS if they really keep whining then they may get dessert forever anyway. I think that you would see more people think their actions if there were some "instant" punishment. I still think that those people that are caught on camera, or many witnesses (picture the guy that just shot all of those people on the army base. is there ANY doubt he's guilty? no.) then next week- good bye. I do think that would make a lot of people really rethink their actions. We'll still have crimes of passion, but Probably a lot less premeditated crap!
ReplyDeleteAnd I am probably one of those people who swat their kids and say "we don't hit"- and sometimes they honestly need that! So, let's take someone and shoot them and say "We don't shoot". I bet that would make people think about thier actions! I want someone to make me eat a whole pizza and say "we don't make a pig of ourselves!" :)
Sometimes we forget that there are two sets of laws that we are dealiang with, God's laws and the law's of the land. With a theocratic type of government capital pushishement or in other words blood atonement is a no brainer. It is God's law set out in what Greg calls the pre-moses era. That is not just the law of Moses. President Kimball said, and I have a tendancy to believe a prophet, "The proper earthl penalty for the [murder]is clearly set out in the scriptures and applied to all ages of the world. This penalty is the prerogative and responsibility of governmental authority, since no unauthroized person may take the law into his own hands and sla a fellow being." He goes on to quote, Geneis 9:6, Exodus 21:12, Leviticus 24:17 and D&C 42:19, which says ". . .Thous shalt not kill, but he that killeth shall die." This is one law that in my opinion coincides with God's law and we as individuals are not responsible for killing someone, it is the government's resposibility. How we administer it may be all messed up from how God would adminiter it, but none the less it is God's law. I think that the appropriate punishment should be stoning. Wasn't that the punishment at the time of Moses? Oh, ha they did not have guns or electricity or drugs. Is stoning crule and unusual punishment? Do you think that when Christ comes again that His theocratic government will include blood atonement?
ReplyDeleteOkay, I know that I write too much and you probably do not read it all, but I want to continue my discussion. Now let's talk about the atonement. Elder Tadd Calister of the Seventy in his wonderful book " The Infinite Atonement" states, "The Atonement of the Savior covers every repentable since known to man". I could quote many of the scriptures he quoted, but that would take to much time. The key here is repentable. If the Atonement only covers repentable sins then what is not repentable. Well we know sinning against the Holy Ghost, but what about murder? John wrote, "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." D&C 42:18, 79 state that the muderer has no forgiveness. Forgivenss is the key word here. It does not say that it is not repentabable, just not forgiveable. President Kimball explains, "The muderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime." He goes on to explain that it is still repentable. "Even unpardonable sins should be repented of. The murderer does not have eternal life abiding in him, but a merciful God will grant to every soul adquate rewards for every good deed he does. God is Just. He will compensate for every effort to do good, to repent, to overcome sin. Even the murderer is justified in repenting and mending his ways and building up a credit balance in his favor."
ReplyDeleteLove you all.
I searched current church position on the subject and an official Church statement says that they do not take a position on the death penalty. I guess they are saying that it is up to the people to decide whether or not the death pwnslty is appropriate. God supports both those who do and do note support the death penalty. At least I don't have to feel like I am battling Church doctrine, now.
ReplyDeleteThanks for doing the research for us dad. Like Greg, I am glad to hear what the church and scriptures say. I have to say, stoning does sound cruel and unusual, as does drowning and electric chair. If it has to happen, I do think that they have developed a very human and painless way of doing it. I still vote for an unknow island.
ReplyDelete